Go for it.
Post for DonaldAug 15, 2012 by libjpn
Aug 16, 2012, 01:44:58 DonaldJ wrote:
I don't want to rehash the whole argument, which would just make me angry again. I just want to say what I found irritating. So here it is--
When I get into a political argument where I have strong feelings I often get sarcastic. Sometimes, maybe, this is justifiable. I know it gives me a warm self-righteous glow which I've come to distrust, but there it is. Sometimes the situation calls for sarcasm, IMO, but I find it very easy to be an asshole and careful observation suggests to me that I'm not the only one. But anyway, that's what I do that others will find annoying.
What you do sometimes, LJ, is a little different. Not worse, but to be on the receiving end of it is for me just as annoying as it is to be arguing with someone who is obviously being sarcastic. What you do is go meta--you elevate yourself above the argument and start analyzing what your opponent is REALLY thinking ,what their hidden agenda is, analysis you dispense without showing why they are wrong in the first place, which is what I think you did to me a day or two ago. It is what a teacher might do if confronted with a student who is trying to weasel out of doing an assignment as given and tries to hand in something different. I think that by adopting this attitude it enables you to say insulting things thinking you are giving advice or correction such as a teacher would give to a weaselly student. You may not be aware of how it comes across. You mean well. And if you're not aware, you might think that if the other person reacts angrily it just shows how irrational they are.
Obviously the solution is for you to become a sarcastic jerk like me. That's how far I've gotten with my analysis.
Aug 16, 2012, 08:34:12 sapient wrote:
I just want to say that I love Donald Johnson, liberal japonicus, russell, and many other people who comment on ObWi and, especially, here.
I get furious at times, and I'm sure am hated sometimes, but really consider you to be my friends.
Thank you for this honest exchange.
Aug 16, 2012, 09:14:34 libjpn wrote:
Thanks for commenting, Donald, I appreciate you doing that.
I know that apologies in the form of 'I'm sorry you feel X' are often taken as being insincere (and often are), but apologies in that form should, I think, also be seen as attempts to reassure the recipient that no ill will was involved. So, I am really sorry you felt I was condescending, because that was not my intention at all, nor was any psycho-analysis, except for the fact that your comments were very brief and you aren't the type who often makes drive by comments at ObWi, so I felt there was something you wanted to say, but weren't saying it. If I had something like 'here's what I think you wanted to say', that would have been even more what you describe so I opted for something shorter, which hit a nerve. My apologies.
When people get angry about something, I tend to think not that they are irrational, but that something else is bothering them. Perhaps that is as dismissive as thinking that they are irrational, but that's my take on blog commenting as it has evolved over the past few years.
You also mentioned that I didn't respond to any of your points and my reason for that was that the start of your comment invoked how I comment, and I thought that at that point, it wasn't going to be at all interesting to anyone else but you and me, if that.
I should also note a few things. After my eye operation and some exchanged messages with Gary, I thought that I would try to post more often. I'm also the only front pager who wades into the comments (I don't say this to diminish what Slarti does, just saying that there is a difference between posting something something and then participating in the comments compared with the role that (thankfully) Slarti takes) That means, imho, that you are probably going to get more meta because that is the way I think the comments need to be managed. If I step in and say 'gee, so and so is right', that's like putting a thumb on the scales, so I don't see any alternative to doing things this way.
Again, if there is anything you'd like to say, please feel free, but if you would rather leave it lie, I understand. Thanks for reading.
Aug 16, 2012, 09:51:35 libjpn wrote:
Bouncing between here and the mothership. Thanks for your comment, sapient, and I'm not trying to shut you up and I understand abortion is an issue on which you feel strongly. I hope my comment to you at the mothership make more sense in light of my comment to Donald above. thx
Aug 16, 2012, 10:22:28 DonaldJ wrote:
LJ, I was furious on Monday or Tuesday (I forget which), but it faded. Internet fights are sort of silly most of the time.
How is Gary anyway? I haven't checked his blog to see if he's posted anything. Will do that now.
Aug 16, 2012, 16:30:53 Slartibartfast wrote:
I am self-diminishing; no extra help is needed. Me being displaced by seven time zones in recent times makes it sometimes a battle between LJ and I who spots and kills the spambots first.
Gary seems fine, if his Facebook entries are any guide.
I am just fine with everybody getting occasionally annoyed with each other; it's kind of like having a big Italian family. I just think it's important to try and keep the conversation more trying-to-understand and less you-think-this-because-you-are-evil. But up to a point, it's a free blog; have at it. It's kind of Thunderdome for ideas.
I can't say you are all my friends because I don't know any of you in RL and only are familiar with the aspect that you present on OW. But you all seem like decent people, and I wouldn't turn up my nose at an opportunity to share food and drink with any of you. Including Thullen, even considering the risk that he may slip and decapitate me with his butterknife. And even though there the odds of us suddenly agreeing on everything are even lower than the odds of every coffee molecule in my cup going from room temperature to perfect drinking temperature, right this second.
We're going to disagree. Even the people we consider to be political allies are going to disagree. None of this should be a shock. Deal with it gracefully, please. I direct that last prayer at myself, above all, and I am not even a tiny bit Italian.
Aug 16, 2012, 21:33:50 russell wrote:
"it's kind of like having a big Italian family"
My ethnic heritage is primarily Italian, and red-clay rural Georgia Scot-Irish.
Which probably goes some way to explain my general vibe online.
Just want to say I appreciate the exchange in this thread. Well played LJ and DJ.
Also, sapient, back atcha.
Also, slarti, ObWi would crumble without your patient, judicious, and scrupulously even-handed moderation. Just my opinion.